周：我们能否从去年开始说起？当时您曾两次前往美国，见到了疫情爆发以来无法会面的朋友和同事。那是怎样的一种感觉？

王：去年我去过美国两次，2月和3月一次，11月的时候停留了整整一个月。首先，我访问了华盛顿特区、纽约市以及哈佛大学。11 月去了耶鲁大学，然后是华盛顿特区和纽约市。遇到了很多老朋友和一些以前从未见过的年轻同事。访问非常愉快。我们进行了坦诚友好的交谈。

周：这与疫情之前你对美国的了解有何不同？

王：疫情前，我们没有过多谈论美国的问题，他们也没有过多谈论中国的问题。现在，在美国，我就遇到了在美国旅游安全不安全的问题，也就是所谓的“亚洲仇恨”。走在街上，我感到自己并非完全安全。而且，我在CVS连锁店和其他地方看到了扒手，街上还有“黑人的命也是命”运动的痕迹。他们问了我中国疫情的情况、国内问题、北京和上海发生的事情以及各地的封控。这些都是过去未曾有过的新情况。过去，我们基本上只谈论双边关系和整个世界局势。

周：在华盛顿特区，战略与国际研究中心（CSIS）举办了名为“一个北京人在华盛顿”的活动，当然指的是你。你在现场阐述了学术合作和交流的重要性。我们能否期待两国像以前一样，重归那种紧密的交流和伙伴关系？

王：我的朋友甘思德在CSIS工作。他在华盛顿做了一个关于北京的演讲，谈到了自己在北京的经历，题目叫做“一个华盛顿人在北京”。我们非常有效地分享了各自的经历。当然，也遇到些困难。他在北京的一家隔离酒店里生活了两个星期。这些就是我们当时谈论的内容。当然，也谈到了双边关系。

周：你谈论美国的角度一向是友谊和朋友——你们终于有机会坐下来，甚至一起吃饭。你的美国朋友告诉你了什么？你又和他们分享了什么？

王：他们非常希望见到我。他们当然拥有很多不同的信息来源，比如西方媒体、在互联网上与中国同行的对话等。但是，它们无法取代人与人之间的互动。他们直接问了我很多问题。比如，我在北京观察到的情况。我谈到了党代会，以及会后人们的想法、经济形势、城市封控时居民是否有足够食品等问题，诸如此类。我向他们询问了美国中期选举的影响，谁将成为未来几年的美国总统候选人。谈话很顺利，但这些都是关于中国、美国以及整个世界的严肃对话。

周：既然提到吃的，那在美国的时候，你喜欢吃什么美国菜？你最想念什么？

王：吃的？我们当然吃三明治。我参加了CSIS的晚宴。许多名人参加，例如CSIS主席何慕理和我的老朋友们。我看到了很多老朋友，包括肯尼思·科伯索尔和其他学者、中国学者和其他国家的学者。在华盛顿的这场活动上，我享用了晚餐。现场还有美国国务院官员和中国外交官。

周：王教授，我们看到世界范围内，一系列全球活动不断举办，特别是G20。来自世界各地的领导人，包括美国和中国的，最终得以面对面交流。两国关系有改善的迹象吗？

王：第二次去美国的时候，我还前往阿布扎比参加会议，最后一站到了柏林。我和美国、欧洲同行和中东人都交流过。毫不奇怪的是，没有多少人对全球趋势持高度乐观的态度。他们不仅谈到了疫情，还谈到了可能出现的全球经济衰退、一些发展中国家的债务危机，当然还有乌克兰冲突，以及中东或一些非洲国家的地缘政治紧张局势。这并不像我们在疫情之前想象的那样美好。人们也在谈论许多国家（包括欧洲）的社会动荡。所以，我们面临着更多的困难。在中共党代会的报告里，我看到也提到了一些“赤字”，比如和平赤字、发展赤字、全球治理赤字和其他方面的赤字。这些威胁着世界和平与繁荣。我们面临着许多以前从未经历过的困难。

周：中国人有一种流行的说法，就是“中美必须找到正确相处之道”。你理解的正确相处之道是什么，或者说，已经找到它了吗？

王：说到“正确相处之道”，我觉得在中国人的思维里，或者说在中国人眼里，它应该包括修正美国对华政策和态度。我们希望美国取消贸易关税，取消对华为和TikTok等中国企业的制裁；停止鼓动台独势力，减少对台军售；停止干涉中国在香港、新疆等地区的内政。我们希望美国能够采取一些行动。但是，我认为他们无法找到纠正这些错误的方法。他们认为自己没有错。他们将关系恶化归咎于中国。

周：我们一直认为中美关系是世界上最重要的双边关系。那么这种情况是否仍然如此？现在中国和其他地区的关系正取得进展，包括中东和海湾国家。

王：在我和国际观察人士的谈话里，没有人否认美中关系的重要性，因为美国是第一大经济体，中国是第二大经济体。它们也是最重要的军事力量和地缘政治参与者。问题在于两国能否和睦相处，恢复不同部门的合作，寻求建立全球治理和协调机制。

周：对于美国和中国来说，走出双边关系低谷的动力正在减弱。那么，他们下一步应该做什么，才能给所有人带来希望？

王：作为一名学者和退休教授，我的主要工作是找出问题是什么、问题的根源又是什么。如果可以的话，我会预测未来美中关系的轨迹。如果我说政府应该做这做那，那未免太冒昧了。向政府提供建议不是我的工作。我希望他们有更好的相处方式。但我没有任何具体的建议可以提供给他们。

周：对于2023年，你的哪些预测是充满希望的，是否受到相互交织的各类危机的冲击？这些危机再次考验着全球体系，以及全球体系繁荣发展的能力。

王：我认为，2023年两国之间的贸易关系、人员往来、面对面会议都会有所恢复。如果美国人来中国，我希望能有更多的机会和他们交谈。但这不会改变大局。比如，我所在研究领域和其他领域的同事，都建议不要去美国旅游，怕自己不受欢迎。我的美国同事也有类似的担忧。如果他们想来中国，会权衡在隔离酒店住多久。我说：“不，再也没有那样的事了。”但他们可能会说，好吧，我们害怕受到骚扰，我们的设备、手机和笔记本电脑可能会被搜查。所以，整体氛围不如多年前那么好。这是我最关心的问题。

2023年，两国社会和双边关系将出现一些转好的迹象，但恢复两个社会之间的传统交流需要很长时间。例如，我希望成都和得克萨斯州的领事馆能恢复并开始运作。我还希望减少旅行限制。但是，恐怕这些事情仍然是双边关系的障碍。我最关心的是台湾问题以及两国之间的技术竞争。

周：王教授，你提出开设一个名为“冷战故事”的新节目，旨在研究现代历史上一个非常复杂时期的人类经历。您希望通过这个节目实现什么目标，为什么现在提出这个节目？

王：其实，我并没有提议开办名为“冷战故事”的新节目。这其实是一个名为“看理想”的平台，他们提议我应该和他们一起做一个口述节目。我对着设备说话，讲冷战故事，他们录下来。我在冷战期间没有太多经历，但我还是有故事要讲。

我有很多东西要和听众分享：中美之间的冷战历史，还有美国和苏联之间的冷战历史。我们从冷战中吸取怎样的教训是中心问题。我还在学习，因为我对冷战还是有记忆的。研究的时候，我了解到了更多细节。昨天，我做了一个关于巴勒斯坦人、阿拉伯人和以色列之间的中东战争的节目。很有趣，但也发人深省。看到双方之间的杀戮和仇恨，我感到非常震惊。

周：中国最近的驻美大使现在是新任外交部长。随着秦刚走上世界舞台，他将如何利用自己的经验和技巧，塑造中国对华盛顿的立场？

王：访问华盛顿的时候，我见过他两次，就双边关系进行了数小时的长谈。我发现秦刚大使，或者说秦刚外长，是个非常可爱的人。我很喜欢他。他诚实、直接。他有过外交经历，担任大使期间对美国有了更多的了解。我希望他作为外长，能够把在美国的经历牢记在心。他和普通的美国人一起参加体育活动。他不仅与政治家和政府官员进行交谈，还与商界人士和学者进行交谈。我认为，他拥有和美国人民打交道的丰富经验。这是一个积极的迹象。

但同时，外交部长和美国国务院官员并不是塑造双边关系最具决定性的因素。更重要的是两国国内的政治背景和氛围。看待美中关系时，还需要审视两国的国内环境、人们的想法、美国人对中国的看法等。这些非常重要。

James Chau: Can we begin by going back to last year, when you went to the United States twice to meet with friends and colleagues whom you hadn't seen since the start of the pandemic? What was that experience like for you?

Wang Jisi: I went to the states twice last year, in February and March and then in November for the whole month. First, I visited Washington D.C. and New York City, the Harvard University and in November I went to Yale University and then Washington, D.C. and New York City. So I met with a lot of my old friends and some younger colleagues I have never met before. They were very pleasant visits. We had candid and friendly conversations.

James Chau: How did this compare with what you had known about America before the pandemic?

Wang Jisi: Before the pandemic we did not talk too much about the problems in the United States, and they didn't talk too much about the questions they would ask in China. For instance, in the United States, I was faced with the question of whether it was safe to travel in the United States. It was so-called Asian hate. So, walking along the streets, I would not feel entirely safe. And I also saw some signs of shoplifters in CVS selves and elsewhere. And there were signs of Black Lives Matter in the streets. And they asked me questions about the COVID situation in China, internal problems, what was happening in Beijing and Shanghai and lockdowns here and there. That was new as compared with the old days. In the old days, we would be talking about basically the bilateral relationship and the world situation at large.

James Chau: Let's go to Washington, D.C., where the Center for Strategic and International Studies hosted an event called “A Beijinger in Washington” — which is, of course, you — and you unpacked the significance of academic collaboration and communication. Can we anticipate a return to the level of exchanges and partnerships both countries once did so very well?

Wang Jisi: Well, my counterpart in person was my friend Scott Kennedy at CSIS. So I gave a talk on Beijing in D.C. and he talked on China about his experience in Beijing, the topic being called “A Washingtonian in Beijing.” So we exchanged experiences very effectively. Of course, we also encountered difficulties. He had to stay in a quarantine hotel in Beijing for two weeks. So these were the experiences we were talking about. Of course, we also talked about our bilateral relationship.

James Chau: Well, more widely, you always speak about America in terms of friendships and the friends that you have, when you finally got a chance to sit down together, even share a meal together. What did your American friends tell you? And what did you share with them in return?

Wang Jisi: Well, they were very interested in meeting me because they, of course, had a lot of different information sources — the Western media, conversations on the internet with their Chinese counterparts. But they could not replace person-to-person interaction. So they asked me a lot of questions directly. For instance, what I have observed in Beijing. I talked about the [Communist Party of China] Party Congress, and what people were thinking about afterward, and the economic situation, and whether we had enough to eat when we are locked down in the city — things like that. And I also asked them about the implications of the midterm election in the United States, who would be the U.S. presidential candidates in the coming years. So the conversations went very well, but it was a serious conversation about China and the United States and elsewhere in the world.

James Chau: But since you mentioned food, just that what American cuisine did you enjoy while you were out there? What did you miss most?

Wang Jisi: Food? We're having sandwiches of course. Yes, I had a dinner party with CSIS. A number of celebrities attended, like John Hamre, president of CSIS, and my old friends. I saw a lot of old friends — Ken Lieberthal and other scholars, China scholars and international scholars. And in Washington I had dinner. U.S. State Department officials joined us, and Chinese diplomats also joined us in Washington.

James Chau: Professor Wang, we're seeing the world returning to a rapid series of global events, notably the G20, where leaders from around the world, including the United States and China, finally got to meet each other in person. Are there signs of improving relations for these two countries?

Wang Jisi: On my second trip, I attended a conference in Abu Dhabi, and I went to Berlin as a final stop. So I chatted with my American European counterparts and people from the Middle East. Unsurprisingly, not many people were highly optimistic about global trends. They talked not only about the pandemic but of possible global economic recession, debt crises in a number of developing countries and, of course, the Ukraine conflict and the geopolitical tensions in the Middle East, or in some African countries. So that is not a rosy picture, as we saw before the pandemic. And the people were also talking about social disturbances in a number of countries, in Europe as well. So we are faced with more difficulties. In the [CPC] Party Congress report, I saw a number of “deficits” mentioned — such as the peace deficit, development deficit, global governance deficit and other deficits. These are threatening the world's peace and prosperity. So we are faced with a number of difficulties we have never experienced before.

James Chau: There's a popular expression among the Chinese which is “Find the right way for China and the U.S. to get along with each other.” What is the right way your mind — or has it indeed been found?

Wang Jisi: Talking about the right way, I think in the Chinese mindset, or in Chinese eyes, the right ways should include all the corrections of U.S. policies and attitudes toward China. We hope the United States will lift trade tariffs, will lift sanctions against Chinese companies like Huawei and TikTok. The United States should stop encouraging independence forces in Taiwan. It should cut down arms sales to Taiwan. And the United States should stop interfering in China's domestic affairs in Hong Kong and Xinjiang. So there are a number of things that we hope the United States will do. But I don't have hope that they will find a way to correct these mistakes. They don't think they are mistakes. They blame China for the deterioration of the relationship.

James Chau: We always assume that the China-U.S. bilateral relationship is the most important in the world. Is that necessarily still the case, especially when China is building inroads with other regions, including the Middle East and the Gulf countries, for example?

Wang Jisi: In my conversations with international observers, nobody would deny the importance of U.S.-China relations, because the U.S. is the number-one economy and China is number two. They are also the most important military powers and geopolitical actors. The question is whether the two countries can get along in getting back to the old days when they had much sectoral cooperation between and sought mechanisms of global governance and coordination.

James Chau: For the U.S. and China, there are diminishing incentives to move past the lowest point in their modern relationship. So what should they do next that would create hope in all of us?

Wang Jisi: As a scholar and as a retired professor, I think my main job is to find out where the problems lie, and what are the root causes of the problems. If I could, I would predict the trajectory of the U.S.-China relationship in future. It would be too presumptuous for me to say that governments should do this and do that. To advise the governments is not my job. So I hope they will have a better way in dealing with each other. But I don't have any specific advice to give them.

James Chau: What do you forecast for 2023 with a sense of hope? Is being tempered by interconnected crises that are again testing the global system and its ability to prosper among the conditions?

Wang Jisi: I think in 2023 there will be some restoration of trade relations, personnel exchanges, face-to-face meetings between the two societies. And I hope I will have more chances to talk with the Americans if they come to China. But this will not change the overall situation. For instance, my colleagues in my old field and in other fields, caution against travel to the United States, fearing that they will not be well received. And my American colleagues have some similar concerns. If they want to come to China, they weigh how long they will have to stay in a quarantine hotel. I said, “No, there is nothing like that anymore." But they might say, well, we are afraid of being harassed. Our devices, our cell phones and laptops might be searched. So the atmosphere is not that good as compared with many years ago. So this is my major concern.

In 2023, there will be some good signs in societies and in the U.S.-China relationship. But it will take a long time to restore the traditional practices between the two societies. I hope, for instance, that consulates in Chengdu and Texas will be restored and that they will begin to function. I hope there will be fewer travel restrictions. But I'm afraid that these things are still obstacles for the bilateral relationship. I'm most concerned about Taiwan and technological competition between the two countries.

James Chau: Professor Wang, you have a new initiative called “Stories of a Cold War,” which looks at the human experiences during a really complex time in modern history. What do you hope to achieve with this initiative, and why do it now?

Wang Jisi: Actually, I did not propose starting a new program on what I call the Stories of the Cold War. It is a platform called “Kanlixiang” or "See Ideals.” They proposed that I should do an oral program with them, as I speak to some devices and they record that and then I will tell the Cold War stories. I did not have many experiences during the Cold War, but I have stories to tell.

I had a lot to share with audiences — the Cold War history between China and the United States, and also between United States and the Soviet Union. What are the lessons we should draw from the Cold War is the central question. I'm still learning because I have memories about the Cold War. And when I did the research, I learned a great deal more details. Yesterday, I did a program on the Middle East wars between the Palestinians and Arabs and Israel. It was very interesting, but also very sobering. I also was very surprised to see the killings and the hatred between the two sides.

James Chau: China's most recent ambassador to the United States is now its newest Foreign Minister. As Qin Gang steps forward onto the world stage, how will he use his experience and skill to shape China's position on Washington?

Wang Jisi: In my experiences in Washington, D.C., I met him twice and we had long conversation over many hours on the bilateral relationship. I found Ambassador Qin Gang — or Foreign Minister Qin Gang — to be a very lovely person. I liked him a lot. He was honest and direct. He had experience in foreign affairs, and he got to know more about the United States when he was ambassador. So I hope that as the foreign minister he will keep the memories of his experiences in the United States. He played sports with Americans —common people. And he had conversations, not only with politicians and government officials but also people in the business community and scholars. So I think he had rich experience with the American people. So I think it's a positive sign.

But at the same time, I don't think foreign ministers and U.S. State Department officials are the most decisive in shaping up the relationship. What is more important is the domestic political background and the atmosphere in the two countries. When I look at the U.S.-China relationship, I have to look at their domestic surroundings, how people think, how people in America perceive China. They are very important.