This is a rush transcript; an audio recording is available here.
James Chau
The China Current continues its special coverage on the coronavirus outbreak. Go to our social media @TheChinaCurrent and our website for interviews, videos, and podcasts. I'm James Chau, Thank you.
Filippo Grandi has led emergency operations in Yemen, Benin, Afghanistan, and many more countries - and with kindness, solidarity, and openness. That pairing of professional skill with personal values has shaped his role today as UN High Commissioner for Refugees at a time of COVID-19, the biggest threat to humanity in almost a century. What future awaits the world's most vulnerable people, many of whom have no home or access to clean water, but are being told to stay indoors and to wash their hands? And what hope do they have when movement and escape are sometimes the only means to survive, but now in an era of lockdowns and closed borders? These are some of the questions I discussed with Mr. Grandi in this special interview, which at times is very moving as he speaks about the human condition that impacts every one of us.
James Chau
Mr. Grandi, COVID-19 is teaching us to check-in on our family, our friends, and strangers. So, I want to begin by asking how you are - and your family in Italy, where you're from?
Filippo Grandi
I'm personally fine. Working from home, as you see, here in Geneva where I'm based. We are strongly advised to stay at home, and my family is in northern Italy - in fact, in the epicenter of the Italian chapter of the COVID epidemics. They're fine. They're on lockdown. They're behaving. Their spirits are good, but certainly, northern Italy in particular has been struck by the coronavirus in unprecedented ways. So, it is always a matter of some anxiety and some preoccupation to think of them there, and not be able to be with them at this time of ordeal.
James Chau
There are over 70 million forcibly displaced people in the world, and, at a time when that same world is facing its biggest threat since the end of the Second World War, what is that going to mean for the people that you care for every day?
Filippo Grandi
First of all, I think we have to say, there is no distinction here. The coronavirus is the most democratic challenge we have ever been facing. Everybody's exposed in the same way. But certainly, refugees, displaced people, 70+ million of them, and if you add also migrants, many of whom are in vulnerable situations, maybe 300 million people are particularly exposed. They are people on the move. We are all on lockdown. Being on the move today is not what one should be, because you risk being exposed to the virus, carrying the virus. So, they have this vulnerability. And many refugees, many displaced people also live in very crowded situations, situations where you don't have water to wash your hands, where you don't have space to put the distance between yourself and others, without the proper homes within which to stay at home. These are the most typical advice that we're getting from health authorities. They cannot do that. So, they have some additional vulnerabilities that expose them particularly at this juncture.
James Chau
That in itself is fascinating and complex and nuanced, all at the same time. Because the entire world is being told to do three things: stay at home, wash your hands, and keep a physical distance from the people around you. So, what do you say then? And how can people protect themselves? If, for example, they're an asylum seeker or refugee, they don't have a home, they don't have access to clean water, and perhaps when you look at the shelters that they may have that's already overcrowded, as you say?
Filippo Grandi
I would say two or three important things here: one, is that the main requests that we have made to governments hosting large displaced populations, be they refugees, internally displaced people, is to recommend that these people are included in the responses, health responses to COVID-19, just like everybody else. And frankly, this recommendation is well-heard and well-implemented, because everybody understands that if you have in your country a group of people that is not covered by the response, it's actually a liability, not only for them, but for everybody else.
And then we are studying the world map and checking where the situation is particularly dangerous, big concentrations, weak health systems. There, we have to bring supplementary support to governments that are facing this challenge, not only for refugees, but always also for the communities hosting them that very frequently are in the same conditions: have little space, have poor water supply, and cannot really implement the basic safety measures that we're all trying to adhere to.
So, there, we need to do more. And this is why my organization, UNHCR, but also many other UN and NGOs, many other organizations are appealing for extra resources to help us bring protective equipment, medical care, improve water and sanitation systems, build additional shelter, and, very importantly, step up our communication channels to those affected, to refugees displaced and most communities, to tell them what to do. We are all learning, even in very advanced industrialized societies, how important health communication is, health education is. We're all learning every day how to protect ourselves from this pandemic. This is all the more important for people that are especially vulnerable.
James Chau
UNHCR is particularly strong in communicating the issues to everybody. I was on your website earlier and looking at the top host countries are vulnerable in themselves, countries like Sudan and Pakistan. So, in this setting, in this new setting that we are trying to negotiate, how well can they continue to host while also dealing with the new stressors that COVID-19 is pushing onto their public systems?
Filippo Grandi
Well, I would say that countries, as you say, in addition to their own challenges for their own national population, they have to face health challenges for refugee populations. They need even more international solidarity. One message that this crisis is delivering to us very clearly is that we're not alone here. There's a lot of rhetoric in the world: "We first", "My country first". How much have we heard about this in recent years? Now, this doesn't apply to COVID, because if there is one country that is not sufficiently protected, that does not have the resources to protect itself, and in this case, refugee populations, we're not out of the risk of the pandemic.
The pandemic may be reduced in some countries but come back from countries that are unprotected. So, we need to really have out of self-interest, and not just because it is good and important to do it, but out of our own collective interest, it's important to help everybody. So, more solidarity. This is why we're appealing to all countries that have more needs, as they respond with their own populations in Europe, in Asia, in North America, which is where the pandemic is spreading more quickly. We're telling them: don't forget to share some also with countries in Africa in the Middle East, many countries which are more challenged. This solidarity is of paramount importance, otherwise they will not manage to contain it. And containment is by one on behalf of everybody.
James Chau
Too often we look at the world's vulnerable people, those on the margins, or off the margins, of society, as the add-on, the footnote to our lives. But in fact, I think there's so much we can learn from you and what you do. You use the word 'solidarity.' I watched your video of your visit to Lesbos in Greece, and in that video, you use words like 'solidarity,' 'compassion,' 'understanding,' 'generosity,' and 'openness.' Surely, all of these words apply very well to what we're trying to negotiate in an age of COVID-19?
Filippo Grandi
And I always say, and I want to repeat it again, solidarity has two dimensions. A dimension of common interest. This by the way, does not apply only to COVID. I do hope, fervently, that this should also be for us a time of reflection, that these big challenges that we are facing in a globalized world need to be faced together with more international cooperation, because it is in our interest as I said for COVID. But frankly, James, it is also our interest in how we fight climate change, or the climate emergency. It is also our interest in how we fight poverty and inequality in the world.
There are so many global issues that we need to learn to face together. And one of them, for sure, is the forced movement of populations, of large populations. This is also a collective challenge that needs international cooperation. But, then, there's another dimension. And the other dimension is ethical. I'm not ashamed to say it, we must help others because it is in our interest, but also, and perhaps above all, because it is right to help people that are more disadvantaged than us.
James Chau
I want to come back towards the end to have a conversation with you about the Sustainable Development Goals and how this all comes together in a post-COVID world. But today, the United States is said to be almost close to exhaustion of its federal supplies of medical goods. And that worries me because, of course, it is the richest or the leading economy in the world today. How will UNHCR be able to step up for refugees and for others when people and countries and governments are fighting for the competing resources that we have?
Filippo Grandi
This is a very big problem, that we have, and may I say, that we will have, because, of course, your refugee programs, aid programs, humanitarian programs on a broader scale depends on international generosity. I am not so worried about the very short-term, because I think everybody understands that we have, let me say once more, a common interest in responding especially to the health aspects of the emergency. But I am worried about how this will impact in the long-term aid, foreign assistance, development assistance, not just humanitarian assistance. This is now at risk. We've seen it also in the 2008 and 2009 economic downturn.
Unfortunately, when donor countries, when rich countries have to reduce their budgets, because of the economic situation - and we are already seeing the signs of an economic downturn here globally - one of the first victims is always aid, it's always the humanitarian and development assistance to other countries. Now, I only hope that what I said earlier - and many others, the Secretary General of the UN and many of my colleagues in the UN in the aid community are saying - I hope this resonates, that this is a lesson for all of us. Take for example, health - which is one of the big Sustainable Development Goals, universal access to health for everybody. This is very important because we will have other epidemics, we will have other pandemics, and they may be as serious as COVID and even more so. And how do we respond to them?
We respond to them, as we have seen in China, as we are seeing in Italy, as we are now seeing in the United States, we respond to them through organized, well-equipped health systems. And this has to be valid not only for China, Italy, and the US, but for everybody, for countries in Africa, for countries in the Middle East, for countries in Latin America that have less resources. So, assistance and aid are very important also to build systems that then can withstand crisis. That's why I do hope that there will be no lowering of the guard when new budgets will be designed next year, and they will have to be done in a situation most likely of financial constraints.
James Chau
I see a map on the wall behind you: if I can transport you now to Jordan, where you have one of your camps - your field workers, they're changing the way they approach their work in this age. For example, they're now conducting their temperature checks, the screenings at the entrances to these sites. What are some of the other transformations they are innovating along the way as we learn more about the epidemiology of COVID-19?
Filippo Grandi
Well we, of course, use a lot more virtual means to conduct our work, just as I'm doing now with you, introduced from home to advocate for more support. But you touched on a very important point, this applies also to our frontline work. They, today, work with people in the field. This is very tough because humanitarian work is essentially person-to-person. Protection, as we call it, for people that we care for - refugees, displaced, stateless people - protection is very often exercised through presence. This is really what my organization is about. And that presence today, it's a bit like being on the move, presence is at risk and maybe has become a risk itself. So that's why, frankly, we need to be very pragmatic there. Where we can substitute presence with technology - and this is possible, many times we do it - where for example, distributions of in-kind products can be substituted by cash distributions - which we have already started doing years ago - this epidemic is likely to boost that modality of assistance.
Because that modality of assistance can utilize virtual needs, cards, and so forth. So, all this means is we're trying to boost them. And where, as it is inevitable, we have to be present with the people we care for, that we need to have protective equipment, we need to take measures, just like doctors and medical personnel do in hospitals. I keep saying that we need to consider in this big crisis humanitarian workers, just like medical people that are on the frontline of the emergencies in cities in China or Europe or North America - humanitarian workers do the same. Many of them are health workers. But even those who are not but need to be present, need to be given protective equipment. This is why one of the biggest priorities, very practical priorities that we have in the aid community today is to mobilize from countries that have this protective equipment and produce it, like China, to mobilize donations of this protective equipment that can be quickly shipped to situations where it is needed.
James Chau
If we know all this, why are our humanitarian workers, including our health workers, so ill-equipped or completely non-equipped at this time? After all, we've been warned for years, and again in September, by the Global Preparedness Monitoring Board that a disease, epidemic or pandemic, was already on its way. What happened to all that PPE [Personal Protective Equipment], that most basic of barriers?
Filippo Grandi
How many warnings have we got in the past five, ten years regarding the climate emergency that is going to be a catastrophe if we don't take measures? How much are we doing about it? Very little. But I'm pretty sure that when the emergency will start to strike very hard, we say, "Oh, but we were warned and we're not ready." So, the same applies to all these global challenges. So that's another lesson that we may wish to draw from this painful experience. Now, in terms of equipment more practically, it's very difficult because production - as in China first, now in Europe - has declined or even stopped in many places, including of protective equipment.
Shipping lanes and air transport are severely limited by the constraints that have been imposed. And therefore, we are now in a bit of a catch-22, where we need to mobilize resources and people, but we are constrained by the same measures that are meant to contain the epidemic. So, it's a tough one that we're trying to navigate. But in the last few days, I think we have made some progress. By the way, the [UN] Secretary-General has been very strong in also advocating - I wouldn't call it 'freedom of movement' - but relative liberty of movement for humanitarian workers in humanitarian situations. Because if they are obliged to stay at home like the others, some very important care to be given to communities affected by the virus could be missing.
James Chau
When people flee for all kinds of reasons, be it civil war, persecution, ethnic cleansing, natural disasters - is that choice now removed from them because of all these international travel restrictions and internal travel restrictions we're seeing?
Filippo Grandi
This is a very important point that you're touching on. Because here again, we have a big dilemma, right? For many refugees, let's stay with the traditional refugees fleeing war, persecution, bad governance, violations of human rights - for them, moving is lifesaving. Yet today, in this COVID world, moving can be life-threatening for them and for others. So, how do you reconcile this now? We are a pretty technical organization, not just an organization making big appeals, we have a lot of legal expertise and we've been advising governments on how to deal with these issues without completely curtailing the possibility for people who are in urgent need to cross borders and seek asylum. There are quarantine methods, screening methods at borders.
We are ready to put resources for countries who have less resources to help with that. Having said this, we fully appreciate that it is a very difficult moment, that state governments have to take decisions to protect their own population, including refugees who may be already present on their territory and, therefore, some constraints are inevitable. Here, the other big message that I want to share with you, and that we have shared already, is to let these measures not be permanent. Once we get out of this emergency - and we will get out of this emergency - we need to go back to normal or to the previous situation. No government should think that restrictions put in place to protect the health of citizens should become permanent and in so doing damage the right of asylum, which is a universal human right.
James Chau
I actually want to ask you about how you bring people together. Because, on a personal level, you've led many emergency operations in places like Yemen, Benin, Liberia, Ghana, Afghanistan, of course, many more. Using that experience, if you think about some of those stories that you've been a participant in, how do you unite people? How do you mobilize communities and individuals so that they come together around a common cause, and then they work together for that common cause?
Filippo Grandi
When I was much younger, I used to work for one of my predecessors, Mrs. [Sadako] Ogata, the Japanese High Commissioner in the '90s. She was in many emergencies in Bosnia, in Rwanda, Central Africa. And she always used to say, "Solidarity is easier in an emergency." Because I think that the sight of suffering, the almost physical realization of this type of health emergency, for example, the damage that it can create to people is understandable to everybody. And in a case like this, we also share the same emergency, for the first time this is an emergency shared by the whole world. It is not confined to a remote situation in a faraway country. So, I think that solidarity now is understandable. It is amazing that we raised funds from the general public in many countries. We raised funds from companies from the private sector. In the last few days, it's actually gone up, not down, this type of support. This is a measure of how solidarity is strong now.
My worry is in six months, is in a year, when we will have to face many other consequences of the crisis. One that is very apparent already - and I speak here for refugees and displacement, but can apply to many disadvantaged people, many poor people. So many hundreds of millions of people in the world depend on, for example, daily wages, very precarious means of subsistence. Now these are the first means of subsistence that disappear in a situation like this, where lockdowns reduce economic activity, countries go into recession. The ones that are hit first are the people depending on already fragile incomes, and refugees and migrants very often belong to this group.
Think of the millions of Venezuelans in Latin America, for example, they are a good example. So, we need to make sure that all these people are also protected going forward. Not only from COVID, but from the poverty that COVID is likely to generate, they'll be the first victims. And that will require a more sustained effort than even in the health sector. That's what is going to be more difficult because once the images of the emergency in hospitals in Wuhan, or in Milan, or in New York go away, it will be more difficult to convince people to share, to continue to share resources with more disadvantaged brothers and sisters.
James Chau
I'm sure being in self-isolation at home in Geneva means that you're as busy as ever. But perhaps there have been moments where you've been allowed to reflect, as you said this is the opportunity for all of us to do. And when you think about the world, post-COVID, whatever that means, post the immediate emergency or post as we go into an endemic situation, who knows. But what do you think the world will look like when we open our doors and interact with each other once again?
Filippo Grandi
First, on your comment on reflection. Yea, that's true. Yesterday, I spoke to all our colleagues through virtual townhall all over the world. We have 17,000 colleagues in more than 120 countries. And I told them, take advantage those of you who are confined, and maybe half of them are, take advantage of this time also to reflect on what we do and how we can do it better? Although I would prefer to be on the frontlines, if I may be completely honest. That's what I would like to do. But I understand that it is important also to direct an organization from one's living room. Who would have said, who would have predicted this? But in terms of the post-COVID world? I don't know, I can tell you how I wish this world would be. And I said it already - let me just repeat it - I wish it could be more not only aware of the need of for international cooperation, but more committed to it, James, that the Syrian War is now nine years old. And if you look at the history of this war, and you look at how the international community has responded to it, we should be profoundly ashamed. A war that has produced five or six million refugees, millions of displaced, caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, wounds, separations, poverty.
This war has been somehow tolerated by the world, not only tolerated but fostered through divisions. How can we admit that? How can we live in a world where a devastating war cannot be resolved— and there's many others— because the world cannot work together. Now, I can hope that in the future, there will be more awareness that we're not going to find any salvation by ourselves. The other day, Pope Francis leading a prayer to the world in St. Peter's Square— deserted— he uttered these words: "Nobody can find salvation alone.” And I think that that's the awareness of this with the challenges that go with it. Because we shouldn't be naive, working together is different when there's so many different political, security, and economic interests around the world. But unless we do that we won't overcome.
Now it's COVID. Tomorrow will be climate change. The next day will be poverty and economic downturns. We need to work together and we're not seeing it enough. So that's what I hope. What will happen? I don't know. It may be so that there will be an end of lockdown and everybody goes back to partying and expanding and being selfish. It's possible. But this crisis is big enough that I think that that message is now going out to many more millions of people that perhaps not thought of it before.
James Chau
You speak about the opportunity for solidarity because unfortunately crisis humbles us, it forces us together. And now since we're separated, we have more time to think about our role in a rapidly changing world. The Sustainable Development Goals promises to leave no one behind. You're a big part of this architecture and its execution, are we going to be closer to delivering because of that solidarity? Or are we going to be off-track when we come out [of COVID-19]?
Filippo Grandi
Well, I hope that we will be - I would say in a realistic manner - a little bit more on track than we were 3 months ago, before COVID started becoming known to all of us. The Sustainable Development Goals are a simple, clear, how can I say, concrete framework of where we should be going to in all areas of human development - from education, to the oceans, to universal health care, to reduction of poverty and so on. That's simple. Anybody can understand it. Children in schools can understand it. Now I think it would be very simple for governments to come out of COVID and say, "Okay, let's go back to the drawing board here. Are we putting enough resources in the achievement of the Sustainable Development Goals?"
Because this is how it works. States have to put resources and states that have less resources need to be helped by states which have more resources. And the pursuit of the SDGs, of course, is a national pursuit: it's the responsibility of individual governments with the UN helping them. But it is also a collective effort, because many of them transcend boundaries and transcend borders, like climate action, for example. So, I think that definitely, that's the model. That's what we need to look at. So, we don't need to reinvent the wheel, the wheel is there, we need to make it turn.
James Chau
I want to ask you to gently steer us to something uplifting, because many people look to UNHCR for solutions for leadership, for hope. Of course, you quoted the Pope and I saw it in your Twitter as well, "Nobody finds salvation alone." How would you choose to uplift not only the immediate community that you serve, but the wider community of humanity that you serve as well?
Filippo Grandi
The pandemic, the coronavirus is a source of great fear for all of us. It's obvious: it's our health. But look around, you asked me about my family, my country, I watch the news every day and from everywhere, but you can understand particularly also from my own region, literally. And I see extraordinary examples of two things that we need so badly today: resilience in the face of adversity, and solidarity that helps resilience last and be strong. And I think that this is what this terrible situation is also teaching all of us, that we must be resilient, but we can also only be resilient together.
So, it may sound a little bit too abstract, it's not. Look at health workers in hospitals, look at humanitarian workers, my colleagues on the front line. I just finished speaking to colleagues in Bangladesh dealing with a million refugees in their country and trying to protect them and the local communities from the epidemic. These people are risking their lives, literally, to protect everybody. They should be the examples for all of us because they are the one's called now to carry out protection measures, protection work, but protecting ourselves against these global threats - and we have many - protecting ourselves from that is the responsibility of us all.
James Chau
Mr. Grandi, it's an honor speaking with you, and more so learning from you as well.
Filippo Grandi
Thank you. Thank you, James.
